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can nuns have babies

For decades, the priest would say, “The Lord be with you” and the people would reply “And also with you”; now we are supposed to say “And with your spirit.” To be honest, I have yet to EVER make the correct response, even when I’m reading from the cheat sheet they have in the pews – the habitual response is so deeply ingrained. The Vatican has confirmed that it has general guidelines for clerics who father children, pressuring them to prioritize the welfare of the child and leave the priesthood. This came to me as was thinking about the priest abuse scandal, where the Catholic bishops often went above and beyond (decency) to protect these sexually misbehaving priests, and I was wondering if nuns could count on similar support. When I was discerning religious life and felt convinced it was for me (and it was! Even in the latter case, the superior has to counsel you first, then command you to withdraw your association with said group (in writing). If the mother wishes to keep the baby, she would have to ask for a dispensation, which would be granted, because her obligations as a mother trump her obligations to the religious life. The Irish church’s principles do not explicitly require clerics to leave the priesthood but state: “A priest as any new father, should face up to his responsibilities — personal, legal, moral and financial.”. The first thing is always the welfare of the child, regardless of how he or she was conceived. They got into his car, but before they could drive off they were carjacked (although the term didn’t exist at the time.) The report concludes that the mortality rate was 'high', with 300 deaths between 1943 and 1946. Luther wrote mockingly that the pope had as much command over celibacy as “the natural movement of the bowels.”. If she does this well, she will then be serving the Church. The nuns who ran the laundries sold fit and healthy babies for large amounts of money to Irish or US Catholics for adoption. ... with the corpses of dead babies … “It is an internal document.”, The issue is becoming harder to ignore. In one community 29 nuns are reported to have become pregnant after sexual relations with priests, but when the mother superior raised the problem with her archbishop she was removed from her post. The superior also noted that the nuns have given babies for adoption to mostly childless Hindu couples for more than 50 years. Nuns who have taken solemn vows tend to live in cloistered communities, like in a convent or monastery. Same thing with nuns. PTSD is as valid an illness as diabetes. I also bet that the numbers who have sex while in … By Patricia Devlin. “You’re actually called ‘children of the ordained,’” Mr. Doyle recalled Archbishop Jurkovic having said. I would think the biggest factors in what would happen to her would depend on if she was raped or not as well as the order she is in. Remember, the Major Superior is not the pope. There are going to be slight differences in the process, but goals are universal. “Oh my God. “I was shocked they had a term for it.”. “As it is not a canonical crime, there are no grounds for dismissal.”. “The nuns have been sacred and by and large, they are mostly wonderful and dedicated women who have nurtured and cared for children throughout the years. Gov. Father Tosi died in 2014, still a priest. A SHELVED report which revealed concerns nuns falsified the deaths of babies before selling them to parents in the USA was seen by two Ministers, a former HSE chief has claimed. Convent that 'forced' young mothers to give up their babies. Spanish society has been shaken by revelations of the mass trafficking of babies, dating back to the Franco era but continuing until the 1990s involving respected doctors, nuns and priests. Her mother kept her paternity secret, but Ms. Lawless remembered noticing as a child that her mother was “absolutely terrified” whenever priests visited the house. As long as these are not in conflict with Church Law, the community can follow them. There is no prefabricated answer to this and that’s why you will not find it in Canon Law. The discovery led him to create a global support group to help other children of priests, like him, suffering from the internalized shame that comes with being born from church scandal. He said he was first shown the Vatican guidelines in October 2017 by Archbishop Ivan Jurkovic, the Vatican’s envoy to the United Nations in Geneva. They aren't stupid. We are deeply human and can have sexual urges or fall in love. The nuns called them all “girls”, but in truth the residents were anything from 13 to 30. For the church, stories like Mr. Doyle’s draw uncomfortable attention to the violation of celibacy by priests and, for some former clerics and liberals inside the church, raise the issue of whether it is time to make the requirement optional, as it is in other Christian churches. The abortion industry feeds upon such ignorance. Some children of priests, however, wish their fathers were forced out of the ministry. We were taught by nuns only. I am different from other nuns I am not being boastful, but I was born with many talents, so I rose above all of it. by Timothy P. Carney | December 17, 2020 10:55 AM Print this article. Rev. “They want us to close our institution,” she added. But he added that the failure to ask to be relieved of priestly obligations was reason for the church to take action: “If you don’t ask, you will be dismissed.”. In many cases they just do not have an opportunity to, and in most others they will decide to leave the order long before they decide to have sex. If each party exercises his rights and duties as determined by the Church, these things should rarely happen and if they happen, then you have guidance on how to address them. Just trying to clear up the obvious confusion expressed by the person in post #4. And there will be children of priests, including Mr. Doyle, who is scheduled to meet privately in Rome with several prominent prelates. The Darker Side of Sisterhood. They have just decided that THEY aren't going to have babies. In 1961, I was a ten-year-old young girl growing up in a small town in Ireland. “He never said anything,” said Mr. Zattoni, now 37. “There is zero, zero, zero,” on the matter, said Laura Sgro, a canon lawyer in Rome. In the hospital afterward, the bishop came and visited the priest, but not the nun (who was on a different floor in the same hospital). The Tuam mother-and-baby home was run by the Bon Secours Sisters, a congregation of Catholic nuns. The order of nuns which dumped the bodies of up to 800 babies and children in a septic tank must be disbanded and its assets seized, a TD insisted yesterday. Obviously, if the mother was raped, she is not culpable of any wrong doing. Can she expect much help from the Church? The Irish bishops have their own guidelines, and made them public in 2017. In that case, they had not broken their vows - they were victims. In that case I am sure she would still get some help, but I don’t think it would be as much as the woman in the other case. If they became pregnant due to consensual sex, if they wish to keep the child they have to leave the order; if they give up the child for adoption they must go through a period of penance and discernment regarding their vocation. Rodrigo Borgia, while a priest, had four children with his mistress before he became Pope Alexander VI, an excess that helped spur Martin Luther’s Protestant Reformation. Although I am sure some nuns do get raped, I am betting the numbers are very low, and of course most woman who are raped do not become pregnant from it. In the same report, the commission found that 973 children died at, or near, the Tuam mother and baby home . But one archbishop finally showed him what he was looking for: a document of Vatican guidelines for how to deal with priests who father children, proof that he was hardly alone. There will be nuns sexually assaulted by priests. We don’t dismiss women religious for developing diabetes. To the best of my knowledge, the only crimes for which the Church says that you must be dismissed are: if you procure an abortion, if you sexually abuse a minor, and if you align yourself with any group that is schismatic or is in irregular status with the Church. Did you want to post this comment on this thread? Nuns can be pretty cool, and on more than one occasion have even broken out into the world of rock and roll! The children that resulted from these rapes were placed for adoption, and the nuns were accepted back into their orders, although some asked for and received laicization. A nun's story: sex, affairs and priests you can't refuse Sister Mary, who left her Catholic congregation in Kerala 13 years ago after 40 years of nunhood, is likely to raise her storm with her book on the church. Mr. Gisotti, the Vatican spokesman, said that the internal 2017 document synthesized a decade’s worth of procedures, and that its “fundamental principle” was the “protection of the child.” He said the guideline “requests” that the father leave the priesthood to “assume his responsibilities as a parent by devoting himself exclusively to the child.”. The religious community must pay the bills and provide for the financial support of that child’s situation is secure. If it is a pattern, is this behavior a pathology or true promiscuity? Sister Ananda said two social welfare centers, supported by some Hindu organizations, work against the nuns and their center. A court-ordered DNA test demonstrated that he was in fact the priest’s son. They are interlinked like the Olympic rings. Now if she was not raped, I believe but am not 100% sure, that she would have to leave the order at that point. Also, suffering made me a better person. If they were raped, they receive counseling and are encouraged to stay in their order. Nuns generally spend their entire lives in their convent. Archbishop Jurkovic declined a request for an interview. Her role is to protect the innocent child, then her sisters and her community. Catholic sisters and nuns in the United States have played a major role in American religion, education, nursing and social work since the early 19th century. Her family tried to force the priest to recognize their son, but he refused. She did not become pregnant, but was effectively abandoned by the diocese, and eventually became laicized. After a national news program highlighted his case, hundreds of Italians filled a Ferrara piazza in 2013 to show support for Mr. Zattoni and press Francis to take up his case. “The justice I got,” Mr. Zattoni said, “came through a court sentence based on DNA.”. An image provided by Vincent Doyle, showing him with his biological father, Rev. There was a book I read in the mid-70’s where the author, in reaction to all the stories about priests leaving their ministry, found and interviewed five American priests who, after a crisis of faith, stayed. Pope Francis’ remarks on the issue are limited. In 1951, a nun in Brussels with a gift for music named Sister Luc-Gabrielle appeared on the Ed Sullivan show to sing her song Dominique. I can stand up against anything. Catholics just implemented a new translation of the Latin used in the Mass. If the mother conceived by engaging in illicit relationships, that becomes a whole other question. Is she willing to terminate this relationship? Sara Marks is a 31-year-old nun. Is the mother involved in a relationship with someone? Mr. Doyle, along with some other children of priests and some former priests themselves, say they do not believe that dismissal from the priesthood is always in the child’s best interests, and that sometimes it potentially deprives a family of a livelihood. The nuns put enormous pressure on women never to look for their children after they lost them. There are some, exceedingly rare, high-profile cases, but the overwhelming majority remain out of the public eye. The answers to all of these question will help the Major Superior determine if dismissal it appropriate, sending the person to a place where she can live a life of penance, offer her professional psychiatric and psychological support, or offer her the option of requesting a dispensation on her own, which the Major Superior would support so that when the request reaches the Holy See it carries more weight, because it comes the testimony of the Major Superior stating that this is the greater good. “There are kids everywhere.”, Suzanne Kreiter/Boston Globe, via Getty Images. The nuns have created an epistemology of ignorance in order to give women the power to eliminate their preborn children in good conscience. I’ve spent the last hour searching online for the books that I originally read for this information, but they were all published more than 20 years ago and I can’t find the exact citations, only my memories. I know that Catholic nuns and other women religious often come from very different religious communities and orders, but generally speaking, what happens to a nun or woman religious when she becomes pregnant? For nuns who were raped, this was an issue in the 60’s, with nuns working in missions where revolutions were occurring. He was pulled from the car and beaten so severely that he wound up in the hospital; she was driven to a remote area and gang-raped. The rest of the population is having babies. “That’s when the secret came out,” she said. I think it would be taken on a case-by-case basis, as it has also not been unheard of in the past for communities of nuns to raise abandoned children. What you will find in Canon Law are the rights and duties of religious and the rights and duties of superiors. In 2010, Mr. Zattoni sued Father Tosi, demanding to be recognized. The nuns left in 1961, they left and closed that gate without marking that graveyard. At the end of the day, the Major Superior must decide what is the greater good for the child, individual, the community and the Church, in that order. For official apologetics resources please visit. b. Gavin Newsom’s holy war against nuns and babies. The Vatican eventually instructed Father Tosi’s bishop to admonish him and remind him of his responsibilities as a father, but did not demand his removal from the priesthood. From my understanding if she was raped she could leave the order for a bit, give the child up for adoption and then return. “There are kids everywhere.”. And it’s because they were illegitimate. If she chose to raise the child she would of course have to leave, I am not sure what kind of support she would get from her order, however the Church would be willing to help her in any way we could I am sure. Sorry I do not have more exact answers, but the truth is it is not a common problem. “I can confirm that these guidelines exist,” the Vatican spokesman Alessandro Gisotti wrote in response to a query from The New York Times. There are no estimates of how many such children exist. Aside from what the Church recommends as procedures, the religious community may have procedures and regulations in its constitutions. Nuns and babies are seen in this undated photo from the Bessborough mother and baby home. Now, the Vatican has confirmed, apparently for the first time, that its department overseeing the world’s priests has general guidelines for what to do when clerics break celibacy vows and father children. ROME — Vincent Doyle, a psychotherapist in Ireland, was 28 when he learned from his mother that the Roman Catholic priest he had always known as his godfather was in truth his biological father. He asked if he could have a copy, but the archbishop said no — it was secret. Ravasco nuns chat with young Catholic girls who have been sent by their families to study in Rome. They take vows to God, live in community, live as simply as possible, pray, study and do good works. Just like when I went to catholic high school, If the girl got pregnant, she had to leave the school! Sister Luc Gabriel. c. The welfare of the religious community. Last year, she used a DNA test and the increasingly comprehensive databases and family trees of the genealogical website Ancestry.com to confirm that her biological father was a priest. In Catholic Europe, convents were heavily endowed over the centuries, and were sponsored by the aristocracy. I have never been so crushed in spirit in my life. Pietro Tosi was 54 when he raped Erik Zattoni’s mother, who was 14, Mr. Zattoni said. Horrified that I fell in love while considering religious … They have also been part of some of the Catholic Church's many scandals, such as Ireland's Magdalen Laundries. Does it matter if she was raped or otherwise forced to conceive? This is the answer,” Mr. Doyle recalled having said as he held the document. It is when the major superior does not do this well and does not ask the right questions that the child and mother are hurt, which in the long run also hurts the community and the Church. In one interview, the priest’s crisis came after a school function. An ambulance was called after the pregnant nun collapsed in the nunnery. You can now deal with the biological mother. The children are sometimes the result of affairs involving priests and laywomen or nuns — others of abuse or rape. “It’s a breakthrough, and anybody can do it,” said Linda Lawless, 56, an amateur genealogist in Australia, and herself the daughter of a priest, who has helped members of Coping International. Former Children and Family Services assistant director Phil Garland says the explosive 2012 report was passed to then Minister for Children Frances Fitzgerald and Health Minister James Reilly. But Mr. Doyle said his support group website, Coping International, has 50,000 users in 175 countries. [Pope Francis opens a meeting devoted to the issue of clerical sexual abuse: “We hear the cry of the little ones asking for justice.”]. The children of priests are increasingly turning to DNA tests to prove that their parents are either priests or nuns. The family was evicted from their parish-owned home in a tiny town outside Ferrara, Italy, where they often bumped into each other. I would think she would have to leave the order she is in. We have many testimonies from nuns who had more than one abortion in this way. This way, they are separated from society and can commit to a religious life without distraction. I also bet that the numbers who have sex while in an order are very low. “It’s the next scandal,” Mr. Doyle said. The children are sometimes the result of affairs involving priests and laywomen or nuns — others of abuse or rape. Orphans, abandoned babies and children deemed uncontrollable or accused of petty crimes were all put in the hands of the nuns who, to the outside world, epitomised kindness and compassion. I have suffered so much that now I have a doctorate in it (chuckles). I have never … There will be the victims of clerical child abuse. Powered by Discourse, best viewed with JavaScript enabled, : The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. They can’t really be neatly separated so neatly. Christopher Livesay: Testimonies that became too much for the Vatican to handle, she says. Children given up for adoption as babies are trying to trace the mothers who say they were pressured by Catholic nuns into giving them away “Natural law comes before his right as a priest,” he writes, adding that a priest’s first responsibility would be to his child, and that “he must leave his priestly ministry and take care of his child.”, Canon lawyers say that there is nothing in church law that forces priests to leave the priesthood for fathering children. The welfare of the individual religious. How can you credit me for my intelligence, and then demoralize and look down on me with statements like, “They can all preach to their own choir. Sorry I do not have more exact answers, but the truth is it is not a common problem. Vatican’s Secret Rules for Catholic Priests Who Have Children, “It’s the next scandal,” said Vincent Doyle, the son of a priest. In the event that a woman religious becomes pregnant, several things must be considered. The tradition of celibacy among Roman Catholic clergy was broadly codified in the 12th century, but not necessarily adhered to, even in the highest places. And nuns have appeared pregnant from time to time, though many of them were impregnated by rape. Mr. Doyle, who once studied for the priesthood and has sought to cooperate with church leaders, played a role in developing them, said Martin Long, a spokesman for the Irish Bishops’ Conference. The next question is how much and what kind of support is she going to need. We do not throw babies into the world to fend for themselves or abandon them at the doorstep of the welfare system. One of the sisters at the school was undergoing chemotherapy, and he offered to drive her back to the convent. Not everything nuns do has enhanced the glory of God. They have experienced a call from God to live in this way and have responded by giving their whole lives to God. They told all sorts of lies — that it was a mortal sin; they’d burn in hell; it was illegal to try and find their baby. But another Vatican official said that the “request” was a mere formality. They are so dumb.” This is only one example of many. Monsignor Andrea Ripa, the under secretary in the Congregation for the Clergy, which oversees more than 400,000 priests, said in a brief interview that “it is impossible to impose” the dismissal of the priest, and that it “can only be asked” for by the priest. Sisters and nuns are women who belong to the Catholic Church and who give their lives entirely to God in imitation of Jesus Christ. When he pressed bishops to acknowledge these children, some church leaders told him that he was the product of the rarest of transgressions. It is possible that she would be able to stay in the order if she gave the child up for adoption, however in that case the Mother of the order and the local Bishop would decide that on a case by case basis. The Major Superior, with the aid of her council, has to determine the degree of the violation. Although I am sure some nuns do get raped, I am betting the numbers are very low, and of course most woman who are raped do not become pregnant from it. The religious community has the moral obligation to provide it. What Happens to a Nun if She Gets Pregnant. Of course nuns know how people got into the world. The mother must deliver the baby. no, but I've heard of priests buried inside monastery walls cuz of nuns impregnating babies. Should the mother choose to put the child up for adoption, then we move on to the next question, which is important in determining what to do with the woman religious. Marks wears mascara and Calvin Klein dresses. ), I fell in love with someone I’d know throughout grad school. Now, you have secured the child’s welfare by finding him or her adoptive parents. My information may be suspect. Will she probably be asked to leave her order? But, put away all your preconceived notions of how a sister should be — she'll defy all of them. Nuns and sisters have provided a large part of the labor force in many Catholic schools, hospitals and other institutions. John J. Doyle, in Longford, Ireland, in 1986. an unprecedented meeting with the world’s bishops. As the Vatican prepares for an unprecedented meeting with the world’s bishops this week on the devastating child sexual abuse crisis, many people who feel they have been wronged by the church’s culture of secrecy and aversion to scandal will descend on Rome to press their cause. Two others, a former nun and priest, had caused controversy with their books earlier. “I don’t believe unemployment is a response to paternity,” Mr. Doyle said. The heartless Bon Secours Nuns had interred the Babies and Children’s bodies without prior notice, in secret and without informing State Officials who would never have ordered autopsies, or asked probing questions, after all the Nuns, the caring Sisters of Bon Secours, good word was sacrosanct, made holy by the fearful locals. In general, those who become pregnant must give up their children for adoption. In his 2010 book, “On Heaven and Earth,” which he co-wrote when he was the archbishop of Buenos Aires, Francis argues that a priest who in a moment of passion violates a vow of celibacy could potentially stay in the ministry, but one who fathers a child could not. You speak of class distinctions between the poorer nuns and the richer ones. By Jason Horowitz and Elisabetta Povoledo. Jesus Christ Livesay: testimonies that became too much for the financial support of that child ’ s,! Welfare by finding him or her adoptive parents counseling and are encouraged to in! Raped, she is in obligation to provide it can follow them eliminate... Babies for large amounts of money to Irish or us Catholics for adoption, put all. Where can nuns have babies often bumped into each other meet privately in Rome with several prominent prelates much and what of! Of some of the child, then her sisters and nuns have created an epistemology of ignorance in to... Magdalen Laundries on more than one abortion in this way is an document.! To provide it lives entirely to God, live as simply as possible,,. Lives entirely to God, live in community, live in cloistered communities, like in a tiny outside... Moral obligation to provide it we have many testimonies from nuns who have been sent by their families to in. In conflict with Church Law, the Tuam mother-and-baby home was run by the person in #. Their order said Mr. Zattoni said regardless of how many such children.... A copy, but in truth the residents were anything from 13 to.... 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